MENTIONS
Website – https://bryandik.com/
Bryan Dik, Redeeming Work – https://www.templetonpress.org/books/redeeming-work
Pathway U – https://pathwayu.com/
Jobzology – https://jobzology.com/
TRANSCRIPT
Currey (Intro) – What’s going on. Everybody. Welcome to A Theology of Hustle. I’m your host Currey Blandford and today I’m talking to Brian Dik. So I’ve been excited to get this interview done for like a year and a half now. I met Brian pretty early on one of my buddies introduced the two of us knowing that we had similar passions. Shout out to Kyle. Thanks a ton man. but I found out that Brian was in the process of writing this book called redeeming work. And so I decided Hey let’s just push this off until you know the book gets closer. And and now we’re here. We finally arrived. The books here. We I got to read it. It’s awesome. And we get to talk all about it here. Brian is devoted his life as a vocational psychologist to finding the ways people can best sort out their calling and and and work in the places where you know God has gifted them. God has called them. And it’s a really fascinating work. so we talk about the book we talk about all the things that he’s doing the psychology of vocation and why it’s so important. We talk about Jobzology which is the company he runs and and helps out with the sort of scientific aspect of of all of finding your vocation. And so we just get into a lot of what this podcast is trying to do which is talk about work and how we do it as Christians. And and Brian has done a lot of thinking or on the topic and you’re gonna love hearing from him in this episode. I can’t wait for you to hear it. just a reminder to make sure you’re following me on Instagram and Facebook at theology of hustle. And you can also follow me on Twitter at Curry Blackford to stay up to date with the amazing episodes I have coming up for ya that way you know all the all the news and all the good stuff coming out. So yeah make sure you’re following me on all those places and I hope you enjoy hearing from Brian.
Currey – All right Brian. Well thanks for coming on the podcast man. It’s finally nice to meet you. Like in person after like I don’t know a year and a half or whatever of yeah. Of going back and forth and whatnot. So yeah almost in person or on video anyway. Yeah. Close. Very very close. Yeah. Some day we might meet in person. It’ll be all right. Well thanks for coming on. Excited to chat. Do you mind just kinda introducing yourself to everybody to get started here?
Bryan Dik – Sure. my name is Brian Dik. Do you want like a professional introduction?
Currey – Let’s let’s have it all.
Bryan Dik – Let’s yeah I mean so typically I described myself as a vocational psychologist and that plays out in a couple of different ways. My main gig is I’m a professor of psychology at Colorado state university and currently I’m director of training for our PhD program in counseling psychology. but then I also am a co-founder and chief science officer of a software company called Jobsology that has developed an online career assessment system called pathway you. Mmm. Also I’m married and have four boys. I love it. That is a yeah that is a full household man. Four boys. I’m sure there’s a yeah that’s lots of fun. We have lots of fun. Yeah that’s great. I love it. All right so let’s let’s dive into your story before we kind of get into the gritty here. I feel like and you you alluded to it in the book and you talk about it a little bit. Yeah. There has to be like some good reason for sort of becoming of a vocational psychologist. Is that did I say that right? Yeah there has to be some.
Currey – Good. So what is the why behind sort of that trajectory?
Bryan Dik – Well the story is Laden with irony of so at least I often describe it that way. As it turns out I think a lot of people end up pursuing work that response to a need they have. Right. So for me if you go back to my days as a college student with an undeclared major interested in lots of different things but really feeling kind of fearful of choosing one if that means not choosing something else that’s also appealing. I had this decision making style of wanting to keep options open as long as possible. so anyway I really struggled as a Christian college student with this Mmm question of discerning God’s calling. What does God want me to do for my career? Then I remember just regularly praying that God would reveal his well for my car — — eer path in a very clear and unmistakable way. So I’d be praying for this a divine revelation and I don’t I don’t think I expected an audible voice or a Moses in the desert burning Bush type a sign but I did believe that I would in some kind of supernatural way get clarity. Like I would wake up one day and just know or the avail would be lifted and everything would be clear. And you know that just never really happened at least in the way that I thought it would. w ended up being a much more gradual process. So anyway that’s that’s part of the story. I ended up going into graduate school after declaring a major in psychology. I liked psychology. I liked other things too but I had more credits in psychology than those other things. So it was the path of least resistance. And then grad school it was like I don’t know what I still don’t really know what to do but I’m a good student. I don’t mind school and yeah. And you know I want to help people. Maybe I’ll become a therapist. And I looked at different areas of psychology of the various areas that are available for folks to pursue a graduate degree in counseling. Psych seemed the broadest to me. Mm. You could teach you could do research you’d go into private practice consult for organizations college counseling centers all that stuff. So I thought that by pursuing that path part of the appeal was it would effectively delay the decision of you know what I really was going to do with my life when I grew up. Yeah. So I don’t know how much detail you want here but I’ll keep going. all right.
Currey – I love it. I always the best part.
Bryan Dik – Okay. All right great. So I you know applied broadly to different grad programs and counseling psych and I did so fairly naively so for our undergraduates now sometimes I give a workshop called how not to get into graduate school. I’m using the path that I took where you look at what faculty are doing at different places and then you write an essay talking about how those things are your passion and all of that stuff and you just let the chips fall. And that kind of happened to me and providential Lee I got into a program at university of Minnesota in their department of psychology. It’s one of the top five departments of psychology in the world. And they were well aware of it. I mean there was a very strong culture there. well one of the things I discovered when I got there that I should have known before getting there was that this program I was in had a long history of I’m making contributions to research and theory. Yeah. Applied tools related to career development. And so kind of from the get go I was immersed in learning about vocational psychology and psychology career choice and development. And I wasn’t quite sure it was really for me. but I started to sense that there were aspects of this that really fit well. For one thing I was still grappling with this whole decision of what I’m going to do professionally. and another part of it was we had it in that program of vocational assessment clinic where as graduate students the trainees we were providing career assessment and counseling services to adults in the community. many of whom you know middle career adults objectively very successful subjectively totally miserable. so we had these folks who had good jobs with a good salaries and benefits but they were just tied to them with golden handcuffs. Yeah. you know having a lot of obligations. They it’s too risky to give it up but they could hardly get out of bed in the morning. They hated their jobs so much and some of them without any prompting from me would say something like I wish I had discovered my calling. Mm. And that was super interesting to me in part because I was still grappling with this whole issue myself personally even as I was kind of facilitating a process where these people would benefit and which you know find a sense of direction. And so I got to a point where I thought yeah I should really pay attention to what psychologists have had to say about this topic. And so it did a lit review on this quest to find every empirical study that studied a sense of calling using the methods of science in the social sciences. And at that time I — — found eight a total of eight studies and all of history that used science to study calling. And you know a lot of them were didn’t use very impressive methods and some of them used. Hmm. What I considered to be kind of a watered down way of defining a calling. so you’ve follow your bliss you know a passion is your calling. And that’s certainly part of it. I believe that’s part of it. But that’s not all of it. I mean there’s a much richer way of understanding calling that I had been reading about <inaudible> all of these practical theology books that I was reading at the time. So yeah that’s really the point where I thought you know maybe one of the ways I can use the gifts I have and leverage the training I’ve received is bye studying in a serious way. This notion of calling and it’s its function and role in people. And so I did that. I discerned that maybe part of my calling is investigating calling. and I launched a kind of a program of research. I was fortunate to get a job offer in the department of psychology at Colorado state where I’ve been since 2005. And we’ve we’ve developed a network of collaborators and you know there’s still a kind of a drop in the bucket but whereas there was initially eight studies and all of history now there’s more than 600. And and it covers you know it’s a global phenomenon. I mean every continent except Antarctica is now it’s now got scholars doing work on this topic. So you know that’s kind of along meandering answer to your question but that’s the story of how I got interested in the kinds of things I’m doing now.
Currey – No I love it. And I love how much your story I mean I’ve talked to a lot of people now about their career path and whatnot and it’s amazing just how many people I mean certainly like knowing what they want to do and knowing their skills are very beneficial but also there’s just some like yeah well it just seemed like a good thing to do and so I just started doing it do it as well you know it’s just incredible to me you know?
Bryan Dik – Yeah well there’s definitely a passion element to it but it’s also if we want to experience meaning in our work then you you find yourself latching on to things that really speak to a need. And in this case it was a need that I had personally. but also a need that I saw others having as well. And so yeah I mean one thing led to another right?
Currey – Yeah. How much of a I mean how much of what you’ve seen like from there being eight research research studies done to when you started to like 600 now how much of this is like a cultural sort of a we have thinking about even career in general.
Bryan Dik – Yeah. Yeah. Well the timing was right. I mean I think part of it was it was a good time to start looking at this. You know it was interesting when I think back on my decision making process part of it at the time was you know who’s going to do this if I don’t do it? And I laugh at that now because so many people are involved in this this area of work. And I was very fortunate to kind of get in at the beginning and so developed relationships with a lot of these folks. but yeah there was kind of a cultural Mmm awareness of of this w way of thinking about work. And and certainly you know for Christians it’s a it’s a core focus of how we view our vocation as a calling from God to express our gifts in ways that make the world better. Mmm. You thinking redemptively about things. but it’s not something that’s solely for Christians either. you know Oprah has PO published issues of her magazine. Find your true calling you know across the cover. the Dalai Lama a has a chapter devoted to calling and his book the art of happiness at work. you walk through the career section of any major bookstore you’ll see books with topics that have or with titles AB calling in it. So you know it definitely seems like people what more out of life they want more out of their work. Yeah. You know we can appeal to Victor Frankl who described the search for meaning as a basic h an instinct. And I think that’s true. And so of course it would show up within various life domains including and probably especially work as well right? Yeah. Well especially in our culture just gets so much there’s just so much more to do now. Right. — — It’s like it’s just amazing how fast cultural is shifting just even beneath our feet right now.
Currey – I feel like you know the movement of it and what technologies are coming in and it’s just a yeah. It’s amazing. It’s definitely a moving target. Yeah no doubt about it. Yeah. That’s good. That’s good stuff. Okay. So I’d love to hear about your your work at Jobzology. can you I I think it’s such a cool thing that y’all have going on. I would love to hear more about all of that.
Bryan Dik – Sure. Yeah. Well that started Mmm about 10 years ago really? Where a colleague of mine who’s an industrial organizational psychologist named Kirk Krieger and I collaborated on a grant proposal and the grant was funded by the U S department of education. Hm. And what we were interested in was creating an online career assessment system that would gathered psychological information about job seekers. And then you know we’d combine that information into algorithms that would map it onto opportunities in the world of work. And so kind of the basics concept is an E harmony for job seekers and employers. Right. We wanted to make some of these matches because there’s two sides of one coin ideally. Mmm. Bye. Bye. Taking these assessments and getting information people understand themselves better. and by being able to identify people with a set of psychological characteristics that really meet the needs of an open position and a particular organizational culture the organization is able to more successfully pursue their goals. So we started building something. It was very crude and we tested it in the community colleges in Colorado. We had four partner campuses. And so so we did we built this system and we look at it now and we kind of chuckle because it looks like sure it looks it looks like basically we programmed at ourselves. And that’s not that far from the truth. We did have a little bit of help but these were graduate students not professional code slingers. Right. So anyway we found that it that it worked that people benefited from it. And when we paired when we paired the the software with some kind of counselor facilitation they especially benefited from it. And so the university approached us and said Hey we think what you have might be commercially viable. you know what do you think about exploring that possibility? And you know we knew that if it was only up to a couple of professors it would just stay kind of a cool website and language. So in order for it to have legs and to really to scale and have benefit we needed some resources and a business plan. So we met with a couple of entrepreneurs and formed a company in in 2012 we called it Jobzology. And you know the life as a startup is a whole nother. Set of stories and experiences that really has been super valuable for me as an academic to experience. Cause it’s very definitely two different worlds. but you know basically long story short we now have this the software product called pathway U that’s an online career assessment system. And you know we’ve got 70 colleges and universities that deploy it with their students at a n ber of employers who use it as well. And there’s a public site and for readers of redeeming work they can access a version of it as kind of a special bonus of of find the book. So Mmm. You know we’re excited about it. Honestly. It it’s a it’s a core way through which I feel like we can harness some of the magic of the science of vocational psych and then apply it in a really fruitful way I think.
Currey – Yeah. yeah no I definitely enjoyed it. I got to take that little assessment and it was it’s pretty fascinating. It was simple but not simplistic right? Like it was but it was very user friendly. It was very usable and I think like yielded some pretty cool cool stuff.
Bryan Dik – Yeah. Well we’ve worked very hard to ensure that it’s a short as it can possibly be while still providing reliable and valid scores. Right. Which is no small feat if you have tons of items it’s easy to have a you know highly reliable instrument but then people don’t finish it or they don’t want to take it. It’s too much of a commitment. So we’ve we’ve really worked hard to make it it’s short as it can be without being too short. Where — — you compromise the quality of the data.
Currey – Yeah no for sure. I was just I’m taking back to eighth grade and my parents drove me down to Dallas Texas to take a like two day aims assessment. It was like a it was a career assessment back in the day and I sat in this office with this lady for like two days and like testing on all these like different things. And it’s it’s amazing to me because I I like still have that piece of paper you know and like it’s amazing how assessment how powerful assessments like that can be. And like your assessment right. Just the knowledge that can come out of something like that is pretty incredible.
Bryan Dik – Yeah. With what you’re describing of course is fantastic if if your family has the resources you know to provide that stuff. Right? Yeah. But we wanted to kind of democratize aspects of that. And I will say there is power in assessments. You know God created us with different gifts and we’ve learned from in psychology that those can be reliably and validly measured. but I will say that you know not all assessments are created equal. Right. It’s really really important to ensure that you are using an assessment that has evidence of reliability and validity that you know it’s kind of scientifically bedded to provide good information. Cause there’s a lot that are out there that people use that all right. You know just not valid predictors of the outcomes they’re trying to get to. So that’s a constant source of frustration for I think psychologists who have spent a lot of time developing these kinds of measures using well yeah especially as the internet gets bigger and you know broader I mean you can find almost anything out there. Yeah yeah yeah. Right. That’s why I urge people do not just put in career tests and Google and then play with the first one that comes up. Right. Unless jobzology is the first one that comes up because you’re you know it’s just you don’t know what you’re getting.
Currey – Right right. You totally don’t. Right. It’s totally true. It is. I don’t dunno. I’m endlessly fascinated by how difficult it is to know oneself. Right. Like it doesn’t seem like it would be that difficult because you’re with yourself all the time. Like but ah an assessment like yours can it has so much information that like you can’t possibly no by yourself somehow. It’s just it’s amazing to me.
Bryan Dik – Well sometimes you just have to I mean knowing the self is a tricky thing. There’s obviously people that are so complex and I think part of knowing the self is taking a step out of your own head and then looking at yourself through a different lens. Hmm. or applying a particular kind of framework you know it has been shown to be useful and understanding differences between people and then seeing kind of how that model applies to you and that that I think right. That’s where assessments are helpful. You know they don’t they’re not magic. It’s not a crystal ball that tells you what you should do with your life and and you know no assessment. But I think that’s really important to to stress. Like our assessment has a career match tool that uses algorithms to make predictions about career paths that are likely to fit you well but it doesn’t tell you what you should do. Right. Right. and so a lot of people there’s this temptation to look at whatever that top matches and say Oh I took that test. It told me I should be a shepherd or something. And you know no assessment can possibly tell a person what they should do. It’s just a source of information. Right. And if it’s rooted in science then it’s a really you know like beneficial sorts of information to use but it’s not a panacea or the only source. Right. So that’s important to keep in mind I think. Yeah. So how does Jobzology go about like these evidence-based sort of matches for you know certain personalities and how does how does all that work? Yeah. Well so the pathway you assessment measures for things interests. So what you enjoy values or what you find important in a work environment personality which is kind of general tendencies or how other people experience you. And then workplace culture preferences which is basically your values for particular aspects of organizations. Right? And so then it takes that information — — and it combines it and then it maps it onto baseline data for what happily employed people across a thousand different occupations experience. So and it does that by leveraging the us department of labor’s database for occupations called the O net. But if if you’ve ever gone straight to the Oh nets it’s it’s a short for the occupational information network then you know it’s just overwhelming. I mean just the amount of vol e of data is just hard to digest. So we’ve tried to kind of curate that and distill it down into a more easily digestible form with the the most with the information that people care about most kind of presented first and people can dig in and get all the details if they want. Mmm. But it’s meant to just provide a more streamlined way of seeing how their interests and values you know what the implications of those are for what types of career paths are most likely to prove both engaging interesting but also satisfying and meaningful for folks.
Currey – Yeah. That’s cool. I love that. That is yeah it’s amazing. and you so like in order to do this you interviewed a lot of people right? And even in the book you interviewed quite a few people for this and young people and all of that stuff. What is what would you say is I mean is there a an aspect that that people don’t know about themselves most? Like what’s the biggest hurdle do you think to finding calling for most people?
Bryan Dik – That’s it’s tough to answer that in a way because so idiosyncratic people have different hurdles. I do think you know there were aspects of my own journey that are relevant here. Like when so sometimes people people ask me what advice would you give the 19 year old you back when when you were praying for divine revelation. And and part of that was there’s just a lot of ass ptions that people make about you know what it means to have a calling. so you know this gets into some of the things I cover in the book like these half truths that people tell themselves like you know like a calling is something to the ministry. and so do I have a calling? And if I do it’s probably something to the ministry. Or if I care a lot about my faith then I should be a minister or a missionary and consider those things first. And you know I mean my grandparents are missionaries and my dad’s a pastor. These are very important roles within the kingdom but you know they’re not roles that God calls everybody two and and one of the ways that God calls people as through their gifts. Right? Right. And so rather than praying for divine revelation what I probably should have been praying for back then was divine wisdom and awareness of what made me unique. So yeah I mean a barrier. Some people don’t really have a clear sense of what their gifts are or or they find it difficult to to put language to those. Speaker 2 26:19 Yeah. so yeah that’s one of the things that pathway you is designed to accomplish is gives give people a language for describing how they’re unique at least in terms of their interests and values which we know are linked to you know job satisfaction and all these different outcomes. So I mean so that’s one barrier. Yeah. Know that’s yeah for sure. Yeah I mean another thing that you see that I talk a little bit about in the book is that is that a time tested saying like God doesn’t call the equipped he equips the call. Right? It’s that idea that you know even if you’re not really well equipped to do something God will give you what you need to do it well and Mmm. While that is true I mean God certainly does equips the called. It’s just not true that he doesn’t call the equipped. And this to me this just speaks to the importance of attending to your gifts and as a driver and making a decision and kind of discerning what your calling is. so you know all of the kind of biblical stories that Christians point to when they dish out that phrase you know like Moses was concerned about his ability as a public speaker. and so they say wow God doesn’t call the equipped. He equips the called. And that’s true. I mean he he did give Moses some help with public speaking and provided the brother Aaron to step in when needed. but you know — — there’s a reason that God called Moses. I mean Moses grew up in Pharaoh’s palace right? Like who would be better suited to you know have those conversations with feral than somebody who really intimately understood the inner workings of that whole world. So yeah. Yeah. You know there’s a lot of goofy things that Christians kind of believe that are not totally wrong but not totally right either. Yeah. That can end up serving as barriers to okay. Really freely living out a calling in an unconstrained way.
Currey – Yeah. Well and I mean there was several times I wanted to just like shout amen. I think I may have a couple of times in reading the book because you do like I mean the whole this whole podcast is sort of built around this idea that like being a pastor and a missionary is not a higher calling than any other calling out there. It’s like you’re called to do different things right. And it’s just because maybe you’re called to be a pastor for a period of time doesn’t mean that that’s your forever vocation that you always have to be doing you know?
Bryan Dik – Yeah. So I think all those like there’s so many and I appreciated that about the book Bay breaking down those sort of half-truths cause there is some truth and just some of that but there’s but it’s not always true. And if we sort of try to live our lives in this you know one direction it can end up sort of messing us up you know? Yeah. It could if you’re not careful. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think there’s a lot of people that end up in pastoral or or being missionaries you know maybe that wasn’t the best fit for them but they thought that they had to in order to be a good Christian you know? Yeah. Right. And that’s that’s the concern is that people will end up in roles for which that just don’t align with kind of how God made them. Right. Because they feel they ought to or because other people told them they should. And you know I mean God can work people in those circ stances as well. I’m not saying that that’s not the case but that is Mmm. You know those making decisions on the basis of those kinds of things I think doesn’t fully utilize what we know about the way people are designed the way God’s equipped us. Yeah.
Currey – Yeah. I totally agree. That’s good. Let’s talk about the book. I mean we’ve already introduced it and it’s I I’ve really enjoyed the book. I think there’s so much good stuff in there you know like we’re on the same wavelength in a lot of these ways but what was the sort of why behind writing the book in the first place?
Bryan Dik – Okay so the this book is called redeeming work and the subtitle is a guide to discovering God’s calling for your career. And there were two two things that really motivated me to take on this project. One was my own personal story which I already shared about. It’s that you know what would have been helpful for me to understand or or to think through you know when I was praying for a divine revelation back you know as a 19 year old or whatever. so I wanted to kind of write something that would answer that question. but the other thing is you know there is this faith and work movement that’s been building within the Christian community. It’s broader than just the Christian community but it’s kind of most vigorous these this conversation within the Christian community. And and yeah it’s this faith and work movement and there are so many resources that have emerged from that. and many many of those I found really helpful, but there nearly all written by pastors theologians or business leaders and you know great wisdom. But most of those folks don’t read science or really don’t even have access to social science research. And there’s this whole discipline that has very rigorously investigated questions about meaningful work and work as a calling and career interventions. You know like what works in attempts to help people make wise decisions about their careers. And so just kind of as the more I followed that faith and where it movement the more frustrated I became that. Mmm. There was just this treasure trove of information that just was overlooked. It was not part of it. Yeah. And so I thought you know maybe one thing that I can contribute to this is the voice of science. So the book Redeeming Work it’s know theologically grounded. but it’s also what was very important to me to infuse some science into the conversation. So a lot of what we I kind of weave in is what do we know actually helps people and actually works as they forge a career path and adapt to all of these crazy changes in the in the world of work that are present now and that are only increasing going forward kind of thing. Yeah. I yeah I totally agree. And I really enjoyed that quite a bit because there is that interplay because you talk about you know even spiritual disciplines maybe for as you’re sort of walking out your career calling and some of that but at the same time like these you know scientific ways in which we understand work and how you can best figure out what your career calling is.
Currey – It’s a it’s pretty great. Yeah. What was I mean what was it I cause I know there was a lot of of writing that went on and you sorta had to pare it down a little bit. What was one of your as you’re writing the book what was your one of your greatest sort of like learnings as you were as you were doing that?
Bryan Dik – Well I think it was you mean as far as the process of writing it? it’s interesting before you know I I in 2012 I wrote another book make your job a calling with my friend and collaborator Ryan Duffy. Oh. So it was a coauthored book and it was for a general market. And I thought even then I thought Oh I someday I would love to do a book specifically for Christians. Yeah. And I thought that because it was something that was like speaking to kind of you know my tribe and that was something that I is so obsessive. We have thought about over many years that it would be really easy to write as a result. Right. and what I was surprised at is that actually okay. I was so obsessed with kind of getting things right right. That it was it was far less efficient. you know it was just kinda like there were many voices in my head kind of imagining different groups of people reading this that I was trying trying to take into account and address that it ended up being a much slower more plotting process than I expected it. What I thought it would just kind of flow and and there were elements of it that certainly did but there were also times where you know it just kind of felt like I was hitting a brick wall trying to say something the way I wanted to say it and it just wasn’t coming out that way. So know a one year project turned into a two year project. but you know that’s just how it goes. The more I talked to other authors the more I realized that this is extremely common.
Currey – Yeah. It’s just twice as good now. Right.
Bryan Dik – You on it so well and and you’re right your memory is good. There was a round of edits where I I cut 17 000 words so that there was some paint pain and agony. but to the credit of Templeton press and the the outstanding editorial staff there it is much better than it would have been had all of those words been retained.
Currey – Yeah sure. Yeah sure. There’s a there’s a pastor joke that says like if you want a hour long sermon give me a day. If you want a 30 minute sermon you know give me like a you know a week show on a 10 minute sermon give me a month.
Bryan Dik – Yeah yeah makes sense. I get it.
Currey – Yeah for sure. And it’s interesting. I’m having flashbacks to I I recently went to preach I try not to preach too much on work faith and work just because it’s something I do so often on the podcast. And I went to like preach a sermon finally on it and I’m like I’m going to nail this sermon. And like I literally spent a week just spinning my wheels. Like I yeah. It was so difficult. Like this passage doesn’t say you know it was yeah it was when you’re so close to something it can be harder to figure out how to distill it down and in a way that you want it to be received by others. Yeah for sure. And I yeah. To your credit. I think you did that and this was a very readable readable version of this book you know and I I appreciated that there was real life examples of people that sort of how their career career trajectory went about and — — why they did what they did. And yeah I thought that was super helpful.
Currey – That’s thank you. That’s that was really important. I mean how do you learn? We learn from observing other people and if we identify with people who have gone before us and who are doing something that we want to accomplish you know in this case kind of thinking redemptively about their work and and meaningful and satisfying ways then it gives us confidence that we can do that too. Right? Yeah. That was really important for me to include those stories for sure.
Currey – Yeah they were super helpful. And that season of life like that college age sort of around that whole zone right that quarter life or whatever experience. It’s just so complicated because you’re supposed to like sort of have worked out exactly what you’re going to do for the rest of your life when you’re like 20 you know or even younger you know it’s it’s very difficult on these kids I think sometimes.
Bryan Dik – Well so yeah. I mean the kinds of issues that we address in the book are relevant across the full you know the full lifespan. but we did I mean I did focus on young adults because that’s where these kinds of issues become front and center for the first time where there’s a lot of pressure to make these you know there’s structures in place culturally imposed structures that require you to make a decision. Yeah. I mean as as simple and direct as if you’re a college student you can’t register for classes if you haven’t declared a major when you’re a junior. Right? Yeah. At most places. So so yeah we tried to speak directly to the sets of issues and concerns that are relevant for young adults. but and now the thing that that you you kind of or hinting at the world of work is obviously changing. Speaker 2 38:25 It’s much different than it was even 20 years ago and yeah changes the name of the game. So one of the things that I focus on is the need to learn to adapt. There’s this concept career adaptability and one of the most important ways to be successful and I think to live out your faith through your work is to be able to roll with it with the changes that you’ll confront and embrace that as Mmm inevitable. And also kind of exciting. Mmm. Set of realities. Yeah. you know we no longer there was a time maybe when our grandparents just leaned on their employer to dictate what their career path looked like. We can’t do that now. We’re in the driver’s seat of our own career. We are by necessity. But there is something that that is important that comes with that. No we we have autonomy and freedom to make choices. To the extent that external constraints allow that means we really have to take seriously some of these big questions about what it means to be a person of faith. and to think redemptively about living out your faith within the world of work. It’s it means a lot more than witnessing to coworkers and they go going on short term mission trips whenever you can. It means really taking seriously that question. How can I think Christian Lee about whatever field of work that I’m in.
Currey – Right right. So yeah. Well that’s a great example. In the book you you shared a story about going to your first career conference right? Where you like sat down with a bunch of young people sort of your age. Do you mind sort of like delving into that experience a little bit? Yeah. Yeah. This was actually not a professional conference.
Bryan Dik – This was a conference for Christians called the fusing phase. It was fusion phase faith in life and the whole thing was billed as this opportunity to explore what fusing faith in life looks like. And so there was a breakout session for professionals on fusing faith in life at work and you know it was crowded with people. And the moderator stood up as the session was beginning and he just asked people to kind of share what does it look like to fuse faith in life at your in your profession on your in your workplace. And he asked that question and like nobody was responding. It was crickets you know and then and then some somebody a woman cleared her throat and raised her hand and and said you know the way that one way that I do this is Mmm negotiate some extra time off with my boss to go on short term mission trips. And he’s been very supportive and you know people were nodding. I’m like okay well that’s that’s interesting. And then somebody else after a bit said well I I I try to live out my faith by sharing witnessing to my coworkers whenever I can never know when you’ll have an opportunity to share the gospel. That’s also very true. but but then there wasn’t a whole lot else. Somebody raised a point about being ethical. but you know I I kind of was raised in this reformed tradition with Abraham Kuyper perched over my shoulder saying Jesus is Lord of every square inch of the whole creation. There’s no separation of sacred and secular. And you know that way of thinking introduces a whole new set of questions about what it means to live out faith at work because yeah the reality is you know Lee leaving your job to go on short term missions that means like exiting your life to live out your faith somewhere else. That’s the that’s the opposite of fusing faith in life. Right. And and of course we’re called to bear witness wherever we are. no doubt about it but that doesn’t really have a whole lot to do with the work itself. You know like what it means to Mmm. Yeah. You know w kind of work as a mechanic on complex systems within vehicles or to create art that tell us the truth about the world or to run a business in a way that kind of honors you know God’s designed for justice and mercy and and all of that stuff. Like that’s the stuff that really I was interested in then. Yeah. And I just left thinking what just happened in there? Like why why are we not talking about the really gritty particulars of thinking redemptively recognizing that yeah Christ is Lord not just over h an relationships with God. Speaker 2 42:56 and the four spiritual laws and all of that. I affirmed that that’s true but is also Lord over every single aspect of creation that defines where we spend ourselves whether it’s retail sales or you know whatever or podcasting I mean whatever you can think of. Yeah. so what is what does working redemptively look like within those fields? So some of the examples that I weave into the book are of people who really have embraced that and take that seriously. and especially kind of at the end of the book when we talk about the new heavens and the new earth and kind of building toward the new creation I like to tell some of this some stories of folks who are doing that in a way that I think is really inspiring.
Currey – Yeah. And I’m glad you went there because we were going there whether you liked it or not. So because that is part of that reformed you know that good Dutch reform tradition that’s you’re you’re a part of right. Is the okay most of us kind of have this impression right that like sort of everything’s going to burn. Yeah. Everything’s going to be gone and sort of like we’re going to be in heaven and sort of this ethereal plane of a floating around on clouds or something. Right. Biblical. so can you talk a little bit just about that new creation?
Bryan Dik – Yeah. That’s important. Well I mean you know if you if you think about the story of the of the Bible you ask a typical I mean I don’t want to be too to like critical of Christians who you know but a lot of people they have kind of sin salvation heaven view of what the gospel means. I’m a sinner in need of a savior. Jesus saved me. I get to go to heaven. And if you know if you kind of press them on what heaven is it’s this kind of a disembodied place of happiness. You know I don’t think people believe that we’ll be strumming harps resting on clouds but it doesn’t feel sometimes like it’s all that different than that in kind of Christian consciousness. Right? But but if you read the end of revelation you see that it’s a heaven comes to work right? Speaker 2 45:02 The new Jerusalem comes down and and now the Bible starts in a garden. It ends in this garden city. And and part of what that means is we are not in our work right now polishing the brass on a ship that’s sinking right? which is one analogy that some Christians have used. So right. All that you know if you if that’s your view then all that matters is the saving of souls. Save as many souls as you can before it all burns. You know there are some passages in the new Testament that talk about the elements burning but that’s a refining kind of burning is the burning off of sin. It’s not the burning off of God’s good creation. Right. Right. And so part of what that means is what we’re doing right now in whatever discipline whatever field of work that we’re in is coaxing out creations potential even in the face of the distortions of sin that we encounter every day knowing that when Christ returns everything is going to be made new. Yeah. And there is something I think that’s just like really beautiful and powerful about us participating in that work. Like God’s instruction and design for us is to you know kind of coax out creations potential and also with a fall and with redemption to do that in a way that that or it’s sin pushes against sin. And moves things in the direction that it will ultimately become when it’s made new know that is really amazing. I think it’s theologically rich. It’s inspiring from a psychological perspective. I’m thinking as a psychologist we know that when people are able to take the worldviews and then find the alignment between what they find most important in life and what they’re doing day in and day out they experience joy and meaning and purpose. So I think yeah you know it’s just really powerful to me that we can do that. We can experience joy and purpose and meaning in our work. Now knowing that one day everything will be kind of perfected a renewed and so yeah I mean that’s to me a much more inspiring powerful and biblically accurate vision of where key redemptively then the idea of you know it doesn’t really matter because it’s all gonna be sunk in the end anyway. It’s just not just not true.
Currey – Yeah. Amen. I love it. That’s yeah. Agreed. <inaudible> it speaks so much to me to the actual we have which is the resurrection which is a new life meaning that death literally does not conquer us. And that’s that’s the good news right? That’s the gospel.
Bryan Dik – That’s right. Amen. Yeah.
Currey – Yeah. It’s good stuff. I love that. such good stuff man. I appreciate the work. I appreciate the book and everything you have going on in there what is what are some ways people can like kind of get in contact in you know yeah sure.
Bryan Dik – Wow. Yeah I mean I so the the book is called “Redeeming Work: A Guide to Discovering God’s Calling for your Career” and that’s available kind of at the major places you’d buy books or or it’s Templeton press. So you can go to the Templeton press site and order it directly from the publisher. I have a a site that is still being built. Briandik.com that has a little bit of info about some of the work that I do and research and things related to that. So you can track me down that way. And then I’d just invite anyone to go to pathwayu.com. It’s P pathway the letter u.com for information about the assessment system that we’ve developed. And Mmm again you know if you if you purchase the book you can access a version of it that way but you can also learn more halfway you.com.
Currey – I love it. It’s good stuff. And it really was I do have to tell you I really did enjoy the the assessment and like yeah it was it was pretty cool. It was pretty cool. So I love it. I love it. okay so I’ll make sure all those are in the show notes so people can easily find all that stuff and yeah. Let’s are you ready to j p into our final two questions here? Okay. So my first question is what is the strangest job that you have ever had?
Bryan Dik – Yeah great question. you know there’s two that would be competing for that. I don’t know that they’re necessarily strange. it depends on what you mean by strange. But you know my very first job as a 13 year old was detasseling corn. so for people who don’t know for hybrid seed corn you have to ensure that the male parts of one variety of corn are fertilizing the female parts of of another variety. And so you have to de tassel pull the tassels off <inaudible> you know the one brand of corn. So it’s like oddly sexual in that way. But as a 13 year old as a 13 year old I just remember my first day of that job it was like the harsh reality of a farm work. I remember telling my parents I think I know where people w — — ho don’t believe in Jesus go when they die. It’s like this big corn field where the tassel all day all the time. Yeah. So that’s one. I guess I was I was I did work in retail sporting goods for awhile and the only the thing that made that strange was it was a soap opera. I mean the kinds of you know liaisons and trysts and competing love triangles and things I just like could hardly keep it straight. The things that were going on in that store. Right. You can see why people w would find it interesting. Develop sitcoms based on you know workplaces like that. Yeah yeah yeah. That’s the relationships you form in workplaces are just fascinating. It’s also probably the most diverse experience of your entire life you know is yeah. So it’s very interesting. All right. Yeah. Good. okay.
Currey – So my final question then is what is one piece of advice you would give to somebody looking to bring God’s kingdom more into their work?
Bryan Dik – Well it’s think redemptively. so you know I think to live out faith in your job means more than just the fall and redemption and sharing the gospel with others. Although that’s really important. It means recognizing you know God’s created intent for whatever sphere that you’re operating within and thinking you know how can I kind of partner with God with God to make this area more than it is now. but then also recognizing all the ways it’s distorted by sin. how how can I boring this sphere this discipline this area of work this workplace whatever it is closer into alignment with with what it’s becoming with what you know kind of God intended it to be. Mmm. That’s easy to eat. It’s easy to say sounds like platitudes. the way people work that out is not always so easy. but when we seek out people who are doing that well I think it it helps us personalize it and really take those questions seriously and then come up with answers that are meaningful and achievable for us.
Currey – Yeah. I love it. That’s good stuff man. I appreciate the work. I’m I’m excited to keep following along so yeah I appreciate you coming on and chatting with me. It’s good stuff. It’s a it’s been fun. Currey thanks for having me on. I’ve enjoyed it.
Currey (conclusion) – I hope you enjoyed this interview with Brian. I just even listening back to this episode something that stuck out to me is like viewing our work in light of the end times in light of Jesus coming back and and what that means for you know the like how we work now. And I think those those implications are hugely important. So if I can leave you with one thing to think about this week it would be that like what does a working right now in light of you know the future Gloria in light of of the new creation mean for you in your work and how does that how does that change things? I’d love to hear you the answer to that question. So hit me up on on social media. I love to talk through all of that stuff and now is a great time. If you scroll to the bottom of your podcasting app you can leave me a rating and review there. That’s just super helpful for getting the word out about the podcast which the more people need to hear about theology of hustle. I hope you enjoyed this week’s episode and until next time get out there and hustle. —
