MENTIONS
Benedict Anderson, Imagined Communities | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNXZHF0Nl60
Nel Noddings, Ethic of Care | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrBpZFdeoVE
Homi Bhobha, Third Space https://www.amherst.edu/
Henri Nouwen – https://henrinouwen.org/
Henri Nouwen, Life of the Beloved: Spiritual Living in a Secular World
David Schmelzer, Not the Religious Type: Confessions of a Turncoat Atheist
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi | Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience
Visit The Bookshelf to order all your books https://www.bookshelfthomasville.com/order-online
TRANSCRIPT
Currey 00:18 What is going on? Everybody, welcome to a theology hustle. I’m your host Currey Blandford and today I am talking to Sunny, so Sunny and her husband Mark are people that we’ve known for a long time here in this a Wheaton world that we live in. Uh, we have, they’re the sort of a couple that like, you know, all the same people and end up just like knowing each other through that. And we’ve just really enjoyed our time, uh, with them. Uh, and so I had such an amazing time sitting down with Sonny here and just talking about her job. I had known sorta what Sonny was doing as she was going through her PhD program is sort of, we had talked around some of that, but just to get to sit down and like really hear about being an administrator, like especially the school system like Chicago public schools was just awesome. And we like go the gambit in this episode. You’re really gonna enjoy hearing from her. This episode is very, uh, even devotional and I think will encourage you in your work and just like spur you on to, to greater work into, to bringing the kingdom more into your job. And, uh, Sonny is just so good at articulating, uh, some of the ways in which God affects her work. And yeah, this is just a, a really fun episode by somebody I really know, uh, personally pretty well and somebody that I think has a lot of amazing stuff to say. A lot of devotional like pastoral sort of things, uh, come out in this episode. So you’re gonna love it. Uh, just a quick reminder to make sure you’re following me at theology of hustle and, uh, on Facebook and Instagram and Currey at Currey Blackford on Twitter. Uh, you can also sign up for my email updates. I’d try to keep pretty regular on those things, but uh, you can find that signup, uh, in my links under my bio on Instagram or at Currey bland for <inaudible> dot com and I hope you enjoy this episode with sun.
Currey 02:08 Sunny will. Thanks so much for meeting me at the library and hanging out with me a little bit.
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – This is great. Thanks so much. I’m so glad to be here and excited to talk about it.
Currey 02:17 That’s awesome. Uh, let’s just jump off and just have you sort of introduce yourself.
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas 02:23 Great. My name is Sunny Sue Chang Jonas. I know Currey through a mutual friend and I just love your podcast. I love the things that you’re doing. I just love the way that you and JJ are navigating life together and um, we’d love to kind of contribute to what you’re doing with the people around you with theology of hustle. Um, I am right now an administrator in Chicago public schools. Um, we just experienced a strike, so it’s very clear now it in my heart that I’m an administrator, not a teacher, but in my heart I still think that I’m kind of a teacher. Um, I was a classroom and music teacher for seven. I’m taught pre K through eight music, second grade and kinder. And then I transitioned to nonprofit admin and K12 admin. So most recently, since you’ve known me and Wheaton, I’ve worked at world relief for five years doing refugee youth education work, mainly with Burmese Bhutanese and pan African refugees. But also since then I’ve also been an administrator and assistant principal and a case manager and MTSS overseer in both Chicago public schools and the Grange. So that’s been full time, I think now for, let’s see, five years and then part time as well. Wow. So you’ve done a couple things. That’s cool. Yeah, I’m 42. I’m old and I’ve done a lot of work, so I’ve been working since I’ve been 22 and even before then. So yeah. You accumulated a lot of jobs. Yes. And in this time that I’ve known you two, you also finished a PhD. Correct. Thanks for bringing that up. It was a lot of work and Mark and I laughed. I said, I’m not proud of like all of my dissertation, but I’m proud of the fact that I did it while I was a mother and a wife. Um, and while working. Speaker 2 04:10 So, um, while I was at world relief, there is a wonderful professor named Dr. Cohen at Northern Illinois. He met me through my work through world relief and then he specifically said, if you work with me at Northern Illinois, we’ll have funding so that you can have a free PhD and get a little stipend on the side and you can do research with me. So after four and a half years, I finished a degree in bilingual education, a doctrine bilingual education. Um, Dr. Cohen was kind of my PI, my primary — — investigator. That kind of looped me into, um, the summer academies on research team. And then I’ve been studying refugees and bilingual education since then. My, um, doctorate was kind of studying 40 different principals who had ELs, English learners in their schools. And then what they did was they specifically tried to build community. So I studied someone named Benedict Anderson who had this theory called imagined communities, which even before Facebook he believed that our imagined communities, kind of our hearts communities were even more important than physical communities like geography. And like our mountain town with not only the community that we believed in, but the community that was in our heart. So like our church spaces are kind of communities even when we’re not physically together in the same geography are um, for them. English language learners who future college grads, even though they didn’t know anyone who went to college, their imagined community of future college grads who’d be kind of middle-class someday. Those English language learner communities were really important. So imagine communities is one of my theories after studying those four different principles and giving interviews like this. And then also I’m a theory called third space where they say that Homi Bhabha says that third space is not only kind of a position of authority, of kind of fear and reverence, but also a position of intimacy where a teacher able to be warm, strict, and kind of both distant and present. Speaker 2 06:00 And kind of in our best parenting, right? We’re doing that where we’re like, Oh, you obey me, but you also adore me. How often do we walk that line? Not very well, but that third space is kind of what I studied as well. Those principles, relationships with the students being both authoritative and Reverend, but also intimate and where like, you know, their students’ names and you know, each other’s favorite colors and things like that. So, um, that’s third space. And then the third theory was an ethic of care. Nel Noddings really asserts that not only in policy where we’re like driven by laws and I have to sign off all these documents that say that I’ve complied with these deadlines and things like that. So, um, submitted these reports of the state. But I’ve also specifically said my ethic and what’s my real driving force is an ethic of care. So the best principles not only are turning in the paperwork and doing what they called administrivia, but they’re also really driving their decisions based on the caring for their students and their teachers and families. And then what’s complicated about being a principal as a principal in Connecticut. And what I found was that it was very, very hard to be both. And I’m good at paperwork and finishing all the documents and deadlines, but also really being present, being really a good listener and really being attentive to kind of the caring relationships. That was the reason why I went into education. And so a lot of these principles that were super effective were the ones who are like, yeah, I farm out the administrivia or like I do that two hours a day in the rest of the time I’m in classrooms talking to families, really loving the students and knowing them well enough to like know their birthdays and track their birthdays.
07:33 So, um, how do they do that? Both. And a lot of times it takes 60 hours a week, but some of them also were just really experienced, loving, efficient people that knew how to work both sides of their brains to do that. So Nel Noddings also talks a lot about the ethic of care being the driver of what we need to be doing instead of the laws and policies. And even just the, um, you know, parenting wise, like the meal meal delivery and the like, logistics of driving the kids to school and to extracurriculars, like the ethic of care needs to be present. So that then when we’re talking to them about their bandaid after like, okay, I did the logistics of like acquiring the bandaid, buying the bandaid, delivering it to the child, but also like you’re like, Oh, I’m present for the fact that my kid was crying about this thing that happened as a scuffle. So, um, I loved Nel Noddings and she’s really great too. So I also finished Speaker 3 08:25 bad and thanks for asking about that cause that monkey is now off my back and I’m done forever. So, um, I’m really glad to be d — — one with that. Yeah, that’s interesting because all the, all the theories that you brought up just now, right. Include like holding things intention. Right. And I think it’s right. I don’t know that we’re great at that as a people all of the time, you know, fast paced society like holding things together that are seemingly in, in, um, that are, that are not equivocal, right. That, that aren’t this, it’s very difficult for us. How do you like go about as an administrator, you know, like teaching or learning some of those
09:04 skills. So, yeah, so I just really love, um, uh, I really think that the reason why I got this last job actually was, um, a recent letter from they, I asked, I was asked for a peer letter and so like I actually shared that one of my teacher teachers that I was mentoring, um, while I was at CPS, um, he wrote this wonderful letter and it wasn’t like the traditional letter of like my boss wrote a letter of rec, but it was a teacher who said like, this was the best teacher mentor that I’ve ever had. And I was in teacher America where I had a teacher mentor. I obviously had a principal, I had all these people who were supposed to be mentoring me. Probably too many mentors at certain times, but like Sonny was the best because blah blah blah. So anyways, one of the things that he wrote was that, Oh, she turned in her deadlines like she was supposed to for her teacher mentoring program and we met weekly like we were supposed to, she wrote up my lesson observation and she had pros and cons, pros, cons, pros, sandwich like she’s supposed to, she did all the things right. Speaker 2 10:00 But she also just really, really liked me as a person and she really believed in me and she talked to me about like how I was doing with my social life and how I was able to even, was it possible to date while being a first year teacher? The answer is no, you know, but like she listened to me through that stuff too. And that was also the year where I was only assigned like four teachers to mentor. But one of them literally, I spent a personal day because he confessed that he was distracted at work all the time cause he had to go to court and I was like about what? He’s like, I didn’t pay my parking tickets. And I was like, how many? He’s like, I think like 12. I was like Oh my gosh, of course you have to go to court. Let’s go together. He was like, Oh my gosh, I’m going to have to pay like thousands of dollars for all these backlog parking tickets. I was like, let’s go together and we can do all of the mentoring stuff on the train and we’ll like work through all the paperwork that I need. He was like, Oh my gosh. So that was the year that both that guy who wrote the letter of rec and also who’s now a principal and the other guy who I went to the court with, um, it was like a gay black male who’s struggling with faith issues too. So I ended up talking to him about his faith and going with him to court and it was this. Anyway, I just loved both of those guys. I loved how, how hard they worked for the kids. I love them as people. So that letter of rec, which I helped, I think helped me get my current job, really was about a small new teacher who was this trying to be TFA but hadn’t been, you know, teacher certified and all these things, but also how he just said like she loved me.
11:31 And so I feel like the tension is like, yes, we, I turned in my paperwork on time. Yes. Like mentoring actually was an additional thing on my role that I’m like, Oh, I don’t know if I have time for this. But in the end you end up loving the person and you believe in them and you care for them. And they smell that. They smell that. It’s not like something that, because Sonny did her hours and logged in the correct hours, but because she loved me and believed in me, um, that’s what I smelled and that’s what I felt. And yeah, so he wrote that in the letter. And um, my current principal was a psych, Oh my gosh. Like this guy really liked you. And I was like, no, it’s like mutual. Like I just really believed in him. And now he’s an administrator and he really was wonderful. And sometimes when him or the other four teachers, one of them would always be like sweeping the room when the class was chaotic. And I’m like, it was a bad day because you receiving the room. They’re like, yes, I was sleeping in the room because I ne — — eded it break. And I was like, Oh my God, like transition the kids to the next calculus lesson or whatever. But um, yeah, so I just really, um, I do think that the tension is that we want to be both and people, right? We want to hold like how can I be a good dad who like delivers the meals and the bandaids, but also really is present and knows their kid. Like when I hear you actually talking about, especially your oldest son, um, what’s his name? Bennett. And you’re like, he knows that he’s the boss. Like, he knows that he’s amazing. Well, that’s because you put them in safe situations where you poured into him. His school is safe, his church is safe. He’s beloved in all those places. Now someday he’ll have to learn that he’s not beloved by everyone. But until then, you’re going to be like, everyone adores you. You are the best thing since sliced bread. Right? And that’s the way God feels about us. So that’s also spiritually true, but that’s not in this world. True. Yeah. So how can we provide those both and situations where our kids see us deliver the things that we have to do that are the deliverables, but also we’re emotionally present and kind and like loving to them and attentive to them. And so I don’t know a ton about the education system, like firsthand. I, I, you know, I see people, I know people in the education system. Speaker 2 13:39 Is it true though that a lot of times like the education system will take people who are naturally that loving kind sort of thing and then maybe drew them up and spit them out? I mean, of course. Yeah. So what is it about the system that like does that, yeah. So let’s talk about the teach for America model. Cause it’s a two year commitment of social justice, loving, smart people. Um, who decide I’m going to go on the worst schools of America. It’s a real social justice issue and I care about it. I’m going to be a doer, you know, I’m going to be a lover and a fighter at the same time. So some of those people end up breaking their two year contract. Why? Because two years is too long. Even for like a do gooder who’s really smart to actually be capable enough to make it through two years. They break their contract after year one and you’re like, what happened? Well lots of things happen. Like one they got confronted with the fact that teaching is flipping hard. You know, like it’s just like parenting where you’re like, who can prepare you for parenting are teaching nothing and no one, you know, so like you either have it in you to like really rise to the how hard it is or you don’t, you know? And so either kids come out functional or kids don’t come up functional because like their parents or their teachers or someone couldn’t do it. You know, and, um, I recently, uh, Mark was laughing at me, my husband who, um, he was like, how was that movie? I saw like a movie for the first time by myself as a mom because he was like, get out here and get yourself a meal and like, you need a break so bad. So he sent me to Glenn art theater and I bought like the tippy tie next door and I had like pad Thai bag, you know, in a Christian way. Broke the law of like bringing in food into the theater. And I watched men, um, Manchester by the sea or whatever that’s called. And Mark was like, Oh my gosh, how was it? And I was like, it was amazing. It’s about how sometimes your best is not good enough, but that’s good enough. And he was like, well then, you know, like my dark, dark, twisted heart interpretation of that movie. But it’s about a man who tried to parent and be a husband and just failed and like you and then they, they split and you know, and he, he failed in such a major way, in such a sad way and broken way. And you know, you see his, his ex wife remarries and he never remarried cause he probably doesn’t believe that he’s good enough to remarry. Right. Um, and then you see them kind of reconciling. It’s just a beautiful scene where like you see that she saw that he tried his best and that it wasn’t good enough, not good enough for him, her to even stick around. But um, but she also had compassion and she had mercy and she just knew how hard it was. And so anyway, I feel that way about teaching. Like there was a really hilarious, um, staff meeting that I’d like to say that I led because it started off with me saying no one got into this because they said, I love children and statistics. — — No one said, I’m going to go and be a teacher where I do data analysis and like I do assessments all year long, you know, and I’m going to do NWA map testing and have to click on a computer, certain buttons that don’t work and make the internet implode on the school. And then it’s not going to even work. And then I had to do it again seven more times, you know, so no one gets into that. So then we, then we did a staff meeting about data analysis because we had to analyze the data, you know, and target certain groups that were struggling, which always are the kids who are title one poverty, title three, who are ELL and title seven who are special ed. So those federal monies that are now given to schools as extras to support the schools, um, are targeting poor kids, Brown kids, you know, um, special ed kids, you know, with disabilities. So no one really goes into teaching thinking like, I’m going to do data analysis. I’m gonna work 60 hours a week. I’m going to be punching little circles for the, you know, tactile, math manipulatives less than that I have to do. And then again, 70 more times until the kids get it, you know? But, so I think all of us are like that, but I think all of us are like that with, um, ministry or work or whatever. Um, and I think that that’s okay because all of us, um, idealistic do gutters. We figure out our way and with God’s grace and with God’s help and with community help and with good training and just also just getting tougher. We figure it out. But like, I definitely feel like, Oh, people who quit teaching, no judgment, no judgment. I only did it for seven years and it wasn’t long enough before I switched to admin. And every day, sometimes I’m like, why did I stay in the classroom a little bit longer? You know? But it’s because I thought that I could do a better job with something that was slightly easier with a little bit more pay. And also like, I really felt like I saw as a teacher how to support teachers and kids. Um, but I still feel like I sold out. I sold out, you know? Right. Totally. Totally. And even sometimes when I farm out my kids like babysitting or like their meals or whatever, I’m like, I should’ve just done that. I should’ve been on the front lines, you know, but like, we farm out things all the time and we do transitions all the time. And I really don’t judge people who switched from teaching. Um, because, you know, I was proud that I did it for seven years, but I definitely feel like, um, they’re heroes and they’re also like waging war every day. And like, some of them make it out alive and some of them don’t. And that’s okay. You know? So, um, and I think that people even like with parenting, I feel like people, you can see when people get like disheartened and they, they give up. There was, um, I volunteer every year at, um, mothers and more, which is now called DuPage area moms. And, um, they give all their monies from their resale at the fairgrounds, which is this huge thing. Um, they do, I, I wrote in the Sasser’s I wrote in like a bunch of people cause I’m like, I could not survive without this resale. I spend like $200 twice a year, then their clothes for them instead of like target, Walmart shelves. But anyway, I saw this one mom one time I was doing qui and I told them not to give me QA anymore cause I’m like, I’m too soft. You don’t want me for QA because quality inspection, you know. And so when people are donating their things, you make sure that, you know, they don’t have holes at the right season. This woman comes and um, it’s not that she’s anonymous, she wasn’t anonymous. I don’t remember her name. Um, but she comes, she has like all these books and no way should they pass qui no way. Because they have like they’re Brown, they’re obviously from her garage. She did all that. She’d never cleaned out and that like the raccoons loved and everyone loved like just whatever. And like, I’m sorry, this lady just looked so tired and she had loved these books that she had carefully. Like put the tags on and stuff like that. I’m like push them through, pushing through and she’s like, she’s like, she’s like, Oh, thank you. Well she just looked disheveled and tired and then no one’s going to buy those books. So I’m just like, Oh no, maybe I should buy some of those books and then just like throw them away. But yeah, so some people, that’s what happens, you know, life just like wears him down. Like, you know the parable of the different seeds and stuff like that, like different people struggle with different things. But for me I’m like, Oh, the one where it talks about and life is life struggles, this eat away at the sea. And I’m like, Oh no, may that not be me. I want to like be those that 90 year old who still like cheerful and who still loves people and who isn’t like, Oh my gosh, it’s taken its toll.
Currey – Yeah. So, so I mean, so here’s a theological question sort of out of left field, if I could, where do you think God is in those maybe tasks that like we didn’t sign up for or that just the heart, like where is God and
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – totally, yeah, well I do want to be the person who like ran the marathon for God and not just to sprint and like was the tortoise that like chugged on and chucked on. But I do feel like, I mean, could we all say that we’re against prosperity gospel, right? So like when you’ll be God, he makes us rich. When we obey God, life gets easier. No, according to Henry Nowan and according to like so many important theologians, the moral obedience we press into God sometimes it means like doing less, doing, being less successful, struggling and like almost dying or martyrs like dying, actually dying, you know? And so I love that Henry now. And he chose the anti prosperity gospel where he stepped down from being a Harvard professor to eventually, his obedience in one direction was like, eventually he’s like, I’m a one on one aid to a man who does not even know my name, who cannot speak and is in a wheelchair and I’m changing his dirty diaper and it’s not a baby’s diaper that’s clean and like, you know, does from like breast milk. It’s like nasty and gross. So I think that that’s the person that kind of think of in terms of like the saints among us who like kind of make those obedience is. Um, so I do think that theologically that’s what we want to be against prosperity gospel and for kind of what it means to suffer and choose suffering, not so much that breaks our heart and that we get broken. But like just before, just before that, so, uh, off the top of your head favorite now and book a beloved life of the beloved. I just love it. Yeah. But I do love that on your website there’s a bunch of different books that now are on my like to read lips and like I said, I feel like we have different circles. So I feel like I’m going to read some of those books and be like, Oh, I’m so glad that you know, Currey recommended those. Um, I think in that same spirit of like sometimes when we’re obedient and then God rewards us with less, or like sometimes there are seasons where we’re just suffering. We’re like, where’s the year of Jubilee? Hasn’t it been seven years? Like where’s the year of Jubilee waiting for the year of Jubilee? What might your do please? Not for 20 years. Okay. Um, I do think that some of the paradoxes that I wanted to bring up since this is not a public school and I could bring up scripture and stuff, is that I just prayed this morning for someone about having feeble arms and weak knees and what does it mean to like lift people when you’re broken? And also you yourself, your knees are broken but still in our brokenness depend on God’s strength and love to be the one that lifts others and also for ourselves stand. So that’s me. Hebrews. Um, I also have been praying a lot about kind of what you talked about with like, um, Mary versus Martha. Like how is Mark and I’s resume success based on being Martha’s not just in the world but even at church. Like where like we were just such good, dutiful people cause we were on four committees in the church and we’re like overspent at church and overspent at home and overspent at work. You’re like, no, that’s not the way. Like Jesus said, you know that Martha actually did a good thing. That part of the scripture is less than the sermons. Right? But she was doing a good thing. But the better thing, the best thing is sometimes just worshiping and sitting at the feet of God and not even like how many loads of hours have we logged with prayer? How many lungs of, uh, hours have we logged for service?
24:31 But even the company times have we just like read the Bible or just took a nap or like just really known that like God is our provision — — in the way that Mary did. Um, and then the last paradox I really love is um, uh, my friend Matt who actually is a theologian at Yale, he works with Miroslav both about like hospitality stuff, Muslim Christian stuff and like he just is amazing and he has like four books out. But like he’s like Sunny. Your thing is that Proverbs 31 thing that you always talk about, I’m like, yeah, and if I was a theologian I talk about it. So yadda and cough, which are the two different Hebrew words for hands in the power of three, one wife of noble character, she has her hands outstretched and she has her hands drawing in. So like how has God in our different seasons calling us to really, really go deeper and smaller. And when I’m in drawing in people like, you know, the hen with the chicks under her wings and things like that. And how in different seasons are we supposed to have the hands outstretched? So the yacht and cuff hands, both those two separate Hebrew words for the same word hands. Um, how are we supposed to also in other seasons give more, do more, you know, what’s the, um, Joel Osteen verse on stretch our boundaries, the prayer Davis, you know, like, um, expand our land, you know, more and more and more, bigger, broader. Um, so how are those different seasons where I’m like only going to love Henry and homeschool him and no one even knows what I’m doing for one year. And then how in other times I might like practically need Blackman, Henry. Cause like all the ministry and the professional things caused me to go out and about.
26:02 So Bob Goff, who I love, who does, I’m the PIPA glove does the joke is that he’s the doer and that his wife, sweet Maria is the beer. Right? And so how within one ecosystem, how can we make sure that the doing and the being and the yacht and the cough hands are both happening? So that like, um, the MKR PK who’s like suffering because their, their dad was a public figure but not able to be home. Um, how can that not happen for us where we’re actually attentive to our kids and to the people that are right in front of us or our small church, our small family or a small, um, our husband who I’ve just known him so long, he knows I love him. No, no. He’s, he needs some TLC just like <inaudible>. So, yeah. So I think that some of those tensions do exist and you know, for you to bring that up is why I like your podcast. Like you just ask the right questions and bring in good people.
Currey – I appreciate that. It’s, yeah. I think that’s, Oh, there’s so many. Yeah. So many thoughts there. I think that’s like really helpful. I think as people, we’re uncomfortable a lot of times with seasons, and I’ll say this about myself, right? Like, even moving into winter, right? Like winter is telling you it’s time to slow down. Like it’s time to like not be all over the place and kind of like, you know, and, and everything in my beings like no, no, no, we have to go like I’m not okay with like stopping, you know, and yet in our lives there are seasons, you know, and, and it’s okay to have a season of drawing in. Right. And yeah, I think that’s,
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – I’m a season balance out each other and the people balance out each other. Like Bob and Maria got and like within our marriages, like I feel like it’s good when we compliment each other. It’s good when like Henry gets one thing from Mark and a different thing from me and then Pearl goes to me for a certain thing, but then it goes to Mark for a different thing. You know? I think that that’s okay. If the ecosystems are balanced, that’s good too. But I also think that what’s important in terms of sanctification process is that like when I go to public and there is going to be a season where it got like less money, less too much Martha, you know? And then when I’m going to like insular and I’m like, am I bordering on Gora phobia? Is my, is my introverted self driving a little too much right now? Then he’s gonna be like a little bit more Sunny, a little bit more. Martha, are you just resting? Are you just becoming lazy? Right. So I think that that’s where I’m the Aristotelian golden mean, right? Like my kid who’s too extroverted, which is one of them, I’m going to be like, Oh, just just be happy. Just us for it’s okay and it’s okay just for you to be alone and under-stimulated sometimes, you know? And then my other one who’s a little bit more introverted, I’m going to have — — to like Aristotelian golden mean her where I’m like, and do you know what? When you have to work a crowd, it is loving Jesus by when you’re working the crowd, it is exhausting. But then that’s how you’re serving Jesus, you know? And so I think that that’s also the tension where like God will call us into seasons and change us because we’re doing something too much the other way. And then you’re like, you’re right. It’s hard. It’s really hard. Yeah. That’s good. I think that’s a good word for us all.
Currey – yeah, I want to, I want to get back a little bit to sort of your vocation and your profession and why you’ve taken the route that you had, because it seems like the, I mean the bilingual education is obviously sort of the heartbeat behind a lot of this. So what is it that sort of drew you into this like refugee sort of like why, what’s the why behind what you do?
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – Yeah, I think that, um, we all have like heroes and people that we look, you know, that we want to be kind of like when we grow up. And the sad thing is, I think I’m growing up, I think I’m 42 but I’m like, Oh my gosh, am I being that yet? For other people because for example, Dacia toll is a gal who, she graduated from Yale law school and in Connecticut she had founded a bunch of schools, you know, when just charter schools. And I was a psych. Who is this lady? What’s her story? Cause I, um, was needed to do a principal internship from my grad school in New York and then she had schools in New York and Connecticut. And so what’s so cool is that she had gotten whatever prestigious award that gets her into England for her law school. Um, some sort of fellowship that’s famous that I’m blanking on. After she finished that, she was like, I can’t be a liar. She’s all set to be like a prestigious lawyer with a Yale law school degree, with a Fulbright fellowship, whatever. And she finished her Fulbright and she was like, I can’t do this. I got into this cause I love justice. The biggest disparity of justice in America right now is public schools. I’m just going to start a school. So like with, no, just like a TFA teach for America gal. She’s just like, I could do this. Just a little bit of critical thinking and a little bit of whatever. And a lot of, for her, a lot of charisma, a lot of like really good problem solving, a lot of like networks, a lot of really, really good hearted love. She now has schools in Connecticut, New York and Rhode Island, some of which she didn’t start because she wanted to. Speaker 2 31:05 It’s because she’s asked to do these schools. She now has a child, she has multiple children. Now I’m with one of her ex board members because like she, um, anyway, she just is kind of doing, she’s just one of my heroines. Um, she’s one of my heroines because she specifically allowed her heart to dictate kind of her vocation. And she had the social capital and the professional cap. She had lots of things. Um, she had what um, uh, they have that, the resume Adam and the funeral, Adam. Right. And she was like totally loving but also totally poised to like conquer the world on paper. So, um, she’s one of my heroes. But I also think that like I got into what I’m doing partly because, um, my parents modeled for me like that you can live an integrated life even when church and work are separate. And I think that even though I wanted to go to Wheaton college as like this zealous Christian, I’m in high school who like prayed for her mom, cause she didn’t let me go to youth group the day before the act on like Speaker 4 32:07 I’m praying for my mother and my sinful mothers keeping me from youth group. And she was like, no, it’s cause you get home at 10 after youth group and like, Oh I want you to be well slept. And now I’m just like, Oh, I’m going to be that mom who like is such a Nazi to my own kids. But at the time I was like, I’m praying for my mother who kept me from youth group if we’re the act. So I think that they modeled that like home and work can be kind of both christened into Jesus, you know, and um, and that school work all these different places that are kind of like places that can be sanctified, um, that I wanted it to be kind of in a place where like I could witness. I think that’s also because my personality is not an evangelist. Like I cannot, I can’t seal the deal with any of my friends. Like my friends who became Christian were because I farmed out after a certain point of bringing them to youth group. I’m like, they’ve Cho seal the deal for James James Park. Okay. Um, can you finish this, this, um, conversation that I had, but I couldn’t really go there completely with this friend Sarah who has been coming to youth group now for two years. Um, so I think that that’s also why I love working in non church settings and kind of feeling like that’s a place where I can have real relationships that aren’t Forrest and aren’t like, I’m going to witness to you, therefore I’m going to have a non-Christian friendship.
Currey – Right. Um, I do like that. Yeah. That’s cool. So what, I want to give you some opportunities, sort of just talk about bilingual education. Is that all right? I know, like, I know that a, that’s a passion for you. So why is, why is it so important to you?
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – Um, I got to present, um, a paper and a presentation on, um, eschatology and bilingualism, right? So like we are, we are heavenly citizens and earthly dwellers, right? So we are code switching between two places with different rules, different linguistic norms, blah, blah. And refugees also are toggling between two different cultures, two different linguistic norms. So how is it that when Jesus tells me not to steal, but I really want this thing, the world tells me that I should take care of him, number one, which is me, I’m gonna steal that thing because like, who will even notice I’m gonna steal that thing? But the norms of having an, the norms of earth are like not the same. And so, um, how do I toggle between those two things and how are refugees also toggling between those two things? So I feel like that’s one thing that I’ve loved. Um, as children of immigrants, my parents, immigrants 75, I was born in 77. I don’t remember kindergarten because I asked my mom, I don’t, I remember kindergarten. You’re like, cause you didn’t know what the heck was going on. I was like, I remember something about red construction paper, you know, but like I was learning English by immersion and like I definitely loved school and home both cause they were both safe spaces. But one place I understood what was happening verbally and the other place I had to just figure it out. And so I do think that that’s all those things are ways that we are um, remembering our heavenly, our dual citizenry, right? Speaker 2 35:09 We are completely 100% heavenly citizens. We are 100% on this earth stuck as earthly dwellers with limitations. And how has that liminality and how has that kind of code switching? Um, part of who we are. So I love bilingual education because of that. I also love the fact that I have to code switch between like sweet, middle-class Christian women in one context. And the next minute I’m like dealing with like a child who switched from an odd oppositional defiance disorder diagnosis to a DMDD dis regulatory mood disorder diagnosis. And I’m having to talk to the shrink and to the hospitalization about like what, what happens? Like why are his psychotropic meds completely different? Oh cause it’s different parts of the brain but they both look like aggressive mean kids, you know, like, so, um, I love code switching between those things. And I love being able to do that. And I think that that’s what bilingual ed is for me. It’s um, a place where I have really enjoyed the kind of conceptual toggling that’s really applicable in my spiritual life too.
Currey – Yeah. That’s cool. So what is it, uh, so bilingual education, why is it so important for these kids? Cause it feels like, I mean, a lot of schools, you know, take two different trajectories. Some of my friends have, have kids that are in schools that are, you know, in dual language programs, right? Whereas other schools sort of like maybe, um, take kids who, whose, who primarily speak a different language other than English. And then sort of like, pare that down until they’re only speaking English. So what is the like,
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – yeah. Um, yeah, so like I think that the change is that, um, American education is now realizing that we were one of the only cultural cultures and, um, nation States that literally by becoming an American you lose your non English language, right? So like, you know, any other country, like they’re like, Oh, we welcome bilingualism and it’s such an asset. But I think that, um, American public schools, there’s all sorts of bias against other — — countries and other languages. So for example, even though right now the countries that we’re biased against are the ones that are correlated with poverty. So again, Brown, black kids, um, um, specifically like even native American kids or like, um, non English language learner, English language learners. Um, I think before one court case in school law that’s really important that we studied was Myron versus Nebraska, where after world war II, anti German sentiment meant that a teacher was not allowed to speak German and even, and even to conflate that issue, she also didn’t with not allowed to speak German. And also was not able to teach out of the Bible for. So there’s like the conflation of this church versus state and there’s the issue of the, um, anti-German sentiment after world war two. But like, you know, now my husband’s German American and like, he’s not really like a target, you know, but I think that back then it was, and so like this teacher was not allowed and then it got flipped and like, so there’s all sorts of cool reasons why we can see that. Um, yeah, we’ve really risen above that. We’re, we’re better than that. No. And now it’s a different kind of racism. I’m the different kind of thing. So bilingual education, what I love and even school administration in terms of protecting that being an administrator for that is that you do get to advocate for kind of social and kind of systematic, um, justice issues. And so if we knew that K-12 public schooling in America was just like, truly just, then there’s a huge systemic win, right? If we know that overall K 12 public schooling is unjust overall, that’s not a win. So let’s take even CPS, there’s over 600 schools. My last district, there was I think less than 20 schools in the whole district and this one is over 650. Right? So if we knew that CPS was adjust and good and safe and beautiful system, then we’re like, Oh my gosh, how many children over 37,000 teachers over, I don’t know how many children you can Google that, but like over 650 schools, they’re like ecosystems of flourishing. They’re ecosystems of people where they’re learning two languages at the same time. Their um, El one, their language one and their L two are both flourishing and growing. Um, their C one, their culture one there. C2 there’s culture two are both flourishing. Um, or they’re honored as people, as children, but also as like burgeoning adults. So like I think that that’s where I’m, I love bilingual ed too in terms of really it being the justice heart of God and like being something where like the macro stuff that I care about and also the micro stuff. Like, so let’s say that I care about justice, but then I’m a jerk to my husband or my children, which does happen right then that’s like hypocrisy, right? That’s like large macro versus micro hypocrisy. And then, or let’s say that I’m loving my family, but then like I don’t really give a rip about what even Trump decides. Like, I don’t care because like I’m just going to take care of my own. I’m just going to be, um, insular then that yacht and cop hand, then that’s kind of becoming unbalanced. Right? So I do think that bilingual ed for me has been something where like, I’ve actually been able to try to practice some systemic, um, macro as well as micro kind of goodness and holiness and sanctification, um, but also really invest into others as well. So man, Sonny, that’s good stuff. Even the macro micro, um, the, the hypocrisy there is it’s easy to fall into. It really, you know, stand for something in one place and break, tear that down in another place. And like being people of consistency where we value the same thing no matter what is a, it’s a tricky business honestly. But yeah, a call a calling I think. And I think that’s tricky too because I think that when you take a stance in one thing, you do end up having to be for something or against something. So in terms of binaries, we think a lot in binary, it’s like there’s like there’s male and female, but that’s a binary. You’re either one or the other, there’s you are Christian or non-Christian, you’re in or out. You either said the sinner’s prayer, you didn’t, you know, but I think that like what I love about even, um, there’s a book Dave Schmeltzer wrote, um, I’m not the religious type or not the religious type and he says we need to move away from the binaries and start moving towards like this centered set instead of bounded set. Like you’re in and out. Like you have to be walking towards Jesus. And that’s different in different developmentally, but also it looks different for different people. And so I think that also what’s tricky about the holiness thing is that the vineyard did take a stance. The vineyard as a church movement did it take a stance kind of pro women leadership and non LGBTQ leadership. So then it looks externally like some hypocrisy. There’s some internal hypocrisy because um, what if you’re going to love women, the um, the previously systemically oppressed, the minority, that underdog, then you also have to love LGBTQ. But I think that the vineyard at least took the stands that according to scripture and the interpretation descriptor, blah, blah, their particular interpretation looks hypocritical. So I also think that what’s interesting about hypocrisy is that we also have to know that we are all that not only are we all hypocrites because we all sin and we all make mistakes and I am going to be a jerk again usually to the people that are closest to me, um, and less like a jerk on my public self. But also that what’s going to also happen is that I am going to actually be in theory hypocritical, right? I’m going to take a stance for certain things and against certain things that like even within the macro Sunday, you’re a hypocrite too. And I’m like, yes I am. And I’m trying my best not to be, but I’m going to be again. And without being complacent about it, we also have to come to peace and come to terms with our own capacity.
Currey – Yeah. Yeah. That’s tough. Yeah. That’s tough stuff. Um, that’s good. Uh, so what does it, what does a day in the life of a uh, public school administrator kind of look like? What does that role even sort of entail?
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – Yeah, I love kind of, I’m learning about systems because I do realize now that like, um, in particular, um, the thing that I’m the most interested about is the assistant principal position. Cause, um, I still think that I prefer being an assistant principal to a principal. So like what I love about this system principal position is that it actually is different depending on the ecosystem. Right? Um, so some principals are in charge of all student discipline. Um, some assistant principals are in charge of all special ed IEP compliance. Some assistant principals are in charge of all, um, arrival, dismissal, logistics, all blah, blah, you know, but other assistant principals, depending on their strengths with their principals strengths or depending on the, the, um, districts, um, uh, navigation of those roles. In those job descriptions, they are in charge of completely different things like all the professional development staff meetings for the teachers or they’re in charge of, um, all field trips. I don’t know, you know, how, how all the examples of the different ways, but I do have experienced some of those different ways. So, um, what’s a day in the life of, for example, um, even year by year just changes. Um, but this year I’m overseeing 119 IEPs and 504s, which means that every Wednesday for pre K through eight school, everyone’s day. Um, I feel like it’s a miracle. Everyone’s day. Like I know that I felt that way about Parenthood like every day. Like it’s the miracle of life. And then the miracle of continued, Speaker 3 44:46 right? Like every day is a miracle because haven’t, I’m not going to take that for granted. It just takes so many logistics department place for that to happen every day. I feel that way about the 119 IEP Speaker 2 44:57 because I’m like, Oh, I actually don’t know which ones needed translators and which ones don’t. So I have to pull it up off of this software that shows last year’s IEP meeting. Oh, they had a translator last year. Okay. I’m going to get one this year. Okay. This year, that person who was a translator last year is not at the school anymore. So who am I going to ask? Okay. Well and so like let’s say that an IEP meeting has like seven people.
Currey – Sorry, before, before we jump into that, can you just put into context sort of what a IEP, maybe five Oh four meetings. I just want to make sure people understand the gravity of what you just said.
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – has an individualized education plan. So for anyone who either has a developmental disability, a medical disability or an academic learning disability, they are going to, or even somebody who has like speech language pathology during the school day or has social work minutes during the school day, which again are developed, you know, linked to the developmental and linguist, uh, language and, um, learning disabilities or whatever. Um, they will have an individualized education plan, attracts with them every year, every three years. They have to get reevaluated. And that means every three years they are either going to get a pair of professional, are going to get transportation, are going to get um, um, social work minutes are going to get, you know, whatever it might be. So that plan tracks with them. K-12 and now actually there are some States, um, that are kind of extending that K-12 to what Northern Illinois taught me as preschool through 20, all the way from preschool to grad school, doctorate level. So like Mark at Wheaton college now has to honor some of the IPS where like 10 years ago he did not. Um, but I think now that’s a gray area that colleges are honoring. So the K-12 plans are now even tracking longer than that. So that individualized education plans are those special education students and student plans that track with them K-12 but also on the five Oh four medical plans are kind of, um, less restrictive than an IEP, but still you have an annual meeting discussing like how that allergy and the EpiPen usage is affecting that peanut allergy is affecting their school day, making sure that the recess coordinator isn’t giving them peanuts, but also that the lunch coordinator isn’t giving them peanuts and all those things. So, um, or an ADHD diagnosis might be five Oh four, or it might be an IEP depending on the kid and the severity of the implications, but 119 of those. Um, and usually on Wednesdays because of those seven people that are usually at the table for an IEP meeting, um, some of those are part-timers or they’re split between four schools at CPS. Um, and so most people are only in our school for Wednesdays. So how can I squish in between, um, eight 30 to two, two 30, um, and honor the teacher contract, which gives them a 45 minute lunch and honor the fact that like, nobody really wants to show up at eight 30 for the meeting their first of nine, you know, whatever like that. So, um, how do I schedule those with software but also with the notice of conference being a letter home and then a parent phone call and then also an email reminder to all the teachers who have to be present and then try to schedule that. So it’s the teacher’s prep time and not their random instructional time so that we have to get them a substitute.
48:10 All those things are the things that are giving me an ulcer on Tuesdays, but I plan for those like, you know, for the three year evils, you know, you have to plan for like a 60, um, 60 day window for the evaluation to happen again, but also for the annual evils for those to happen. Like, so that you know when to come and the teacher doesn’t find out just on the Tuesday. Um, but I do feel like I am nervous about the fact that, um, even the staff meeting where I was introducing the slightly revised processes here, I just said, you know, I don’t mind working extra to make sure that these meetings run well. What I mind is when my mistakes have implications for you guys, when, um, when my mistakes have consequences, where now you are screwed over because I screwed up, you know? And so with every meeting, having so many people and so many layers of communication with email, phone and in-person communications and letters, I just feel like there’s so many mistakes that can happen. So I just require a lot of grace and it’s humbling and it’s hard. But for the most part so far we’ve had over 20 this year already and we’ll have so many more after that. But I do feel like, um, that’s a huge part of my job right now. And it’s not my favorite part, but it is, I think logistically, probably the most important part. And it’s a way where like all these teachers are now meeting and they’ve created a written document, sometimes like 40 pages long, and they’ve kind of outlined the ways that we’re trying to love their kid during the school day. And then we’re talking to the parent about it and we’re asking them, Hey, does this make sense? Do you see that at home too? Yes or no? Why? Why is it, why is there a disparity? Why is it not the same? Okay, that makes sense. And then really trying to honor the parent’s place at the table for that too. Um, in an ideal situation, the homeroom teacher, the special ed teacher, all the related service providers are all sharing their piece. Then holistically, we are the village that is loving the kid and allowing them to be successful. Even if they have MRDD, I’m a Watchman, call it now, it’s called veer learning and developmental disabilities then or even if they have odd where they’re oppositionally defiant and they have had five foster homes, which did happen to one of my kiddos, that guy who switched to the DMDD D diagnosis but also had amazing test scores and is obviously if we don’t reign it in, he’s going to use all that intelligence for being a gang leader or we can use that intelligence for like being a professor someday. You know, so like I just think that um, yeah, in an ideal world, like all the stars are in alignment. Everyone, they bam, bam, MFM, we’re having all those meetings and everyone’s feeling loved and everyone feels like they’ve contributed to the IEP document. But an on a bad Wednesday, teachers don’t show up because they didn’t get my email cause I only sent it on the Monday instead of the Friday before the parent doesn’t show up because there are other kid is sick and their kid, that other kid has actually probably has the same diagnosis as this one. But it hasn’t been able to go to the doctor yet cause she has seven children. I mean so many different stories that I think can come to the table well or not. But I also think that what’s really great is that, especially when I was a principal and I was a little bit more the, not just the middle manager, but really I’m able to lead certain things. There were certain things I did like, um, I didn’t have an assistant principal, so my secretary when we left, um, she was like treated me like an assistant principal. I was like, yes. That was just fascinating. I did, that was so stupid that she helped me is that I was like, I’m gonna deliver once a week, all the kids’ birthdays that week, I’m going to hand deliver them and say happy birthday. Come to come to lunch in my office once a month and clump them all like in a month, but then deliver them once a week, blah, blah. And so then I’m like scrapbooking and like making these handmade cards for like all the children. And I was like, why did I do this? And Paula saw me doing this and she was like, let me help you with that. I was like, no, that’s above both of our pay below both of our pay grades. Let me finish these. And she’s like, no, no. So, so we finished making all these stupid handmade cards, which I never did again. Of course, you know, but like I still <inaudible> stuff like that. I do feel like that’s also part of principal’s days, right? Like we are also doing things that make us feel human again and that makes us feel like, Oh, this is why I got into the job because I got to deliver that car to that kid and give them a book for their birthday or you know, whatever else.
Currey – yeah. Well it’s interesting, I mean to come to sort of bring this interview full circle, what you do with an IEP or five Oh four meeting is the ultimate probably expression of this administrative care and this like love because in all those people, those seven, eight people that are in that IEP meeting, the only one that really matters is that kid. Right? Like the whole thing is about making that kid flourish, you know? And I feel like it would be easy to lose sight of that child in that meeting, you know? And that’s our kids get lost in that system. You know, in this foster and adoptive world that JJ and I find ourselves in. I mean everybody who does any sort of foster care and a lot of people who do any sort of adoption end up in an IEP meeting and you, you have to be your child’s advocate and all of those things. But it, it like there’s so many moving parts that the person who loses out is that little one. Right?
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – Yeah. And I think that that’s a great example because to actually adopt, you actually have to go through so much paperwork right before you can adopt or foster care kid. There’s like, you know, like the administrivia that came up in those principal interviews, right? So like, I just think that like, that’s exactly right. Like, how do we not lose sight of why we’re there and how, like as the village is convening at the table, how can we say like, Oh, the villages here for that kid, we’re not here just to like check off the boxes and finish this meeting and make sure we’re in compliance. You know, how can we go above compliance? There’s a life, there’s a life at stake.
Currey – Totally. Yeah. That’s good. I love that. Are you okay then jumping into our final two questions then?
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – Yeah.
Currey – Okay. So my first question is what is the strangest job that you have ever had?
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – Um, okay. So at, at college I had two jobs. One was being a TA and I was mugged at gunpoint in urban ed. It was a psych such a way to like enter into this career. Like why are you still in urban ed? That beginning was so Rocky, but um, but the other dive I did was data analysis for the Alfred P Sloan center, a university of Chicago, um, nor can national opinion research center. And so in the basement, me and two other RAs, um, research assistants would like phone call people and just ask them the script of like the questions and stuff like that. We were contributing to like a database of over a million interviews and longitudinal data too, right? Where like it’s people who like 10 years ago gave us data and then are tracking again checking again. So what was the weirdest job about that was that um, I worked like three rungs on rungs under like one of the main researchers at that research group. And it was just a strange job because like first of all it’s during the summer time and I’m like wearing a tank top to work as I’m walking from my apartment to the job and then like, it’s freezing cold in the basement. So I’m like wearing a sweatshirt in August in Chicago, in the basement where I’m like, where is the cracked light bulb? Where’s the like, you know, minimum wage posting poster on the wall that says like minimum wage, but we’re paid on their table and we were not paid on the table. But like, where are all those kinds of cool, detailed, right. They weren’t there, but I did know that five rooms under there was this man that would kind of float around, you know, and then I just knew that he was one of the big waves and that he was like, you know, my boss’s boss’s boss’s boss’s boss boss. Anyway, so now he, you know, five years, you know, like whatever, maybe five to 10 years later after that I realized I was contributing to his work on flow man high chicks MOHAI and I read this book on flow and I’m like, Oh my gosh, that’s why we were asking questions about this and questions about this. And recently I was talking to this um, artist friend of a friend named Josie and she was like, Oh, the book that changed my life was flow. I was like, I was five years rungs under that guy, five Speaker 3 56:24 rungs under. I was his boss’s boss’s boss’s boss. And then she was like, what? I was like, and it was not core or glorified, like wonderful stuff. It was just me like making phone calls me like with the other two people being like, next, next, you know like, but it was just, it was just the weirdest job because you just show up, you had like this pile of stuff and then you do phone calls and then you do like some editing for a book and they do like random things. But it was obviously just like whatever nobody else needed to get done or they need to farm it out then that we did. So I just, it was a strangest job and it was really, really,
Currey – I loved it. I think it’s a cool microcosm though of the podcast in that, that amazing work that was done that changed people’s lives could not have been done without the people doing the research. Yeah, exactly. I mean with our sweat, we all play our roles though, different seasons, but we all play our roles now and chose that job after being the Harvard, he intentionally worked down on mobility. Right. That’s true. That’s good stuff. Okay. So for my final question then is what is one piece of advice you would give to somebody looking to bring God’s kingdom more into their work
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – I think that as I get older, maybe, um, I mean that’s the, the question to ask, right? Like how can we cling on to it and believe it and see it? Um, and how can we really believe our dual identities as like eschatological, he, that we’re both heavenly citizens and earthly dwellers. So I think that that’s maybe the a — — nswer is the question. Like how do we do it? Like by believing that it is happening, that it’s actually true and that we can bring light into darkness and that we can be salt and light in the workplaces and that administrivia and the pile of adoption paperwork actually brings us to a life instead of just brings us to a cramped hand. You know? And so I think that that’s the question is the answer. But I also think that, um, I’m such a big believer in community. Like you can’t just do it by yourself. So like, um, I, I never did that job in the basement by myself. Like it was always with one or two other people. And you’d laugh about the stupidness and the strangeness of it and you’re like, this is ridiculous. You know? And I think that that really is true. My friend who is not a teacher anymore for the same reasons that you had alluded to. Um, she said, how come when I’m doing something with a bunch of crazy kids and I’m by myself, I just want to cry. But then when somebody else’s in the room, I can look at them and we can laugh. And I’m like, Oh my gosh, that’s the power of community, right? Like instead of crying at like the 30 kindergartners, half of them have peed in their pants and half of them don’t know how to tie their shoe and they don’t know how to read. Of course, you know, like then when you’re with somebody else and you could laugh about it instead of just crying about it. So I do think that, um, part of the way that we bring light is that we are strengths for each other and we’re co laborers in Christ instead in isolation.
Currey – Good. Ah, that’s good stuff. I love that. Sonny, thank you so much.
Sunny Sue Chang Jonas – This is super fun. Thanks for doing this work and I know that it’s a labor of love, but it’s labor too. So thanks for what you’re doing it well.
Currey – Hope you enjoyed this episode. Just Hey from Sunny and having this conversation I think was so heartening to me. It’s just, I feel like she really just spoke to a lot of things that I needed to hear and hopefully that you needed to hear. And so you know, if there’s some of that stuff that jumps out to you in this episode, hit me up, let me know. I’d love to hear all about it. Love to hear what you’re getting out of theology of hustle. Uh, if you don’t mind, this would be a great time to scroll down to the bottom of your iTunes or Google play app or whatever you’re using and leave me a rating and review. It helps out a ton and uh, lets me know that you’re listening and that’s always appreciated. So do all that for me. And until next time, get out there and hustle.
